Hello,
I feel as though I reach out after every CAT test I take, however, that's because unfortunately, my CATs have been discouraging rather than uplifting. I just wanted to express my gratitude to you and your team from the outset for always answering my questions: thank you so much.
I recently took my 5th CAT. My scores have been as follows:
Diagnostic: 600 (without IR/Essay)
CAT 2: 600 (IR, no Essay)
CAT 3: 420 (BOMBED the math section because I didn't finish)
CAT 4: 580
CAT 5: 570
I think I know what's going on -- as I started studying, I also started taking longer on each problem. I think my reasoning here is that "I know how to to do this" so I take longer in trying to figure it out. My Quant score has actually increased each time (marginally - by 1-3 points) but my verbal score which started out strong - in the 81% for CAT 2 - has steadily dropped.
I currently have a little under 2 months until my test (6/26) and I'd just like some advice from you regarding what you think is the best mode of attack for a study plan for the rest of my time. My goal is a 700. I know I can do it. I just need help understanding how to diagnose myself? I recently also took a Q/V section from an Economist test (for a contest) and scored a 660. I know that score is likely inflated since it didn't count the other two sections, but the point is, I know I'm capable of hitting my goal.
As mentioned, I think my problem is timing. I think I've read just about every blog on your site ("How to Analyze CATS," How if I don't know a problem during the test even if I think I know how to do it, well I don't know it right now, etc). The other problem I have is that I don't want to take too many CATs (as Stephanie advises) but with such little time left, I don't know how to benchmark myself and know if I'm improving, without taking CATs with relative frequency. There is so much advice on your site -- from how to diagnose my CATs and go from there to generally how to study and help with timing. I think I know what I need to do (skip problems, focus on some of my weaknesses esp in Quant, etc) but I guess I'm just wondering if you've ever seen this performance before and what you suggest to help it? Like I said, I know I can do it. Before studying at all I scored a 600 (again, I know it was likely inflated, but my point is, I at least know the concepts well enough for a 600). At this point, any insights you have would be greatly appreciated. I just want my CATs to go in the other direction!
I've read many of the posts here, and like I said, many (if not all) of the blogs you've mentioned in recent replies. Just trying to gauge what's going on here because I haven't seen many posts where the CAT scores actually decrease.
I hope this all makes sense. Again, thank you so much for all your advice. I really appreciate it.
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Quick follow-up:
Knowing/assuming that what I need to focus on is timing - what is your suggestion on how to best practice that? Is it just through CATs? I can practice on problems and time myself but it's not easy to benchmark myself (i.e. know how that translates to a score) by simply timing myself on OG practice questions.
Thank you!
Knowing/assuming that what I need to focus on is timing - what is your suggestion on how to best practice that? Is it just through CATs? I can practice on problems and time myself but it's not easy to benchmark myself (i.e. know how that translates to a score) by simply timing myself on OG practice questions.
Thank you!
- StaceyKoprince
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Yes, what you describe is common - you feel like you should know how to do this now! And then you spend way too much time and mental energy on something and that messes you up for the rest of the test. (And the built-up mental fatigue would affect you most on the last section of the test...verbal.)
First, read this:
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... -to-do-it/
Re-read it as many times as you need to.
Ah, I just got to a later paragraph in your post. So you've read this already. But you're still not doing it. What do you need to do to make yourself actually do this?
Here's one piece. (Re)read this full, 2-part article carefully:
http://tinyurl.com/GMATTimeManagement
You need to start at the granular level: making good decisions on each single question. Section 4 of the above article talks about this - start there and start doing what it says every single day. The GMAT is really a series of decisions, and the decisions need to be made from a business mindset (how do I best spend my scarce resources: time and mental energy?), NOT a school mindset (how do I get this right?). Yes, you need to get some things right, obviously, but you really do have to be thinking primarily about the big picture and knowing how you can make the best decisions accordingly. "I can get this right in 3.5 minutes" is a bad business decision. It's like saying "I can sell this product to you for $10!" when it cost you $12 to make the product. Sales go up, sure. But your company's going to fail!
And I'm going to point out, again, that verbal is the last section. Spend too much mental energy on the earlier sections and verbal will suffer no matter how good you are.
Verbal started out so strong that I'm wondering whether you might also have hurt your score a bit by studying our techniques (or others) too much! If you're already at 80th percentile, then some things don't need to be improved, so you literally don't want to "break" your own process for those things. (Of course, other areas are weaker, so if you want to lift V at all, then you'll have to learn some other / better methods for those question types.)
Do you think that might have happened / be happening on verbal? If so, go back to your first couple of tests and see what you're just naturally good at - go back to doing whatever you were doing before on thos ethings. Also see where you have more difficulty and try to lift just those areas by learning new ways / our ways of doing those things.
Let's see where the combination of these two things (better decision-making, including timing, on quant and going back to your old ways for some of verbal) take your score, and how far that still is from your goal.
First, read this:
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... -to-do-it/
Re-read it as many times as you need to.
Ah, I just got to a later paragraph in your post. So you've read this already. But you're still not doing it. What do you need to do to make yourself actually do this?Here's one piece. (Re)read this full, 2-part article carefully:
http://tinyurl.com/GMATTimeManagement
You need to start at the granular level: making good decisions on each single question. Section 4 of the above article talks about this - start there and start doing what it says every single day. The GMAT is really a series of decisions, and the decisions need to be made from a business mindset (how do I best spend my scarce resources: time and mental energy?), NOT a school mindset (how do I get this right?). Yes, you need to get some things right, obviously, but you really do have to be thinking primarily about the big picture and knowing how you can make the best decisions accordingly. "I can get this right in 3.5 minutes" is a bad business decision. It's like saying "I can sell this product to you for $10!" when it cost you $12 to make the product. Sales go up, sure. But your company's going to fail!
And I'm going to point out, again, that verbal is the last section. Spend too much mental energy on the earlier sections and verbal will suffer no matter how good you are.
Verbal started out so strong that I'm wondering whether you might also have hurt your score a bit by studying our techniques (or others) too much! If you're already at 80th percentile, then some things don't need to be improved, so you literally don't want to "break" your own process for those things. (Of course, other areas are weaker, so if you want to lift V at all, then you'll have to learn some other / better methods for those question types.)
Do you think that might have happened / be happening on verbal? If so, go back to your first couple of tests and see what you're just naturally good at - go back to doing whatever you were doing before on thos ethings. Also see where you have more difficulty and try to lift just those areas by learning new ways / our ways of doing those things.
Let's see where the combination of these two things (better decision-making, including timing, on quant and going back to your old ways for some of verbal) take your score, and how far that still is from your goal.
Stacey Koprince
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Director, Content & Curriculum
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Stacey - thank you SO much for replying. I actually had that thought re: Verbal -- I didn't really have any strategy going into Verbal, I just did it. For the first two tests I was just doing it without having studied anything. I will go back and assess what went well on those first two tests.
As far as QUANT, I have already started to employ your advice as I've been thoroughly reading blog posts/forum posts and found a post you posted recently to someone else about getting to a 730 and how it's pretty much all a timing thing. Anyway, I plan to take a CAT this weekend. We'll see how it goes.
Once again, thank you so much!!
Ruchi
As far as QUANT, I have already started to employ your advice as I've been thoroughly reading blog posts/forum posts and found a post you posted recently to someone else about getting to a 730 and how it's pretty much all a timing thing. Anyway, I plan to take a CAT this weekend. We'll see how it goes.
Once again, thank you so much!!
Ruchi
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
You are very welcome - let me know how it goes!
Stacey Koprince
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Just took my CAT and got a Q39 and V40 with a total score of 650. Thanks for your help -- going "back to my old ways" with Verbal has definitely helped, I think. As far as Quant, I've gotten better at managing my time (I'm finishing in the 75 min) but I'm still getting many questions in a row wrong, which I know is detrimental to my score. I need to work on that -- I'm guessing its working on better recognizing the "BUT!" feeling so that I skip certain questions right away and have more time to spend on the questions I know I can do...?
In your experience - given that my Verbal is pretty high, what do you think I need to be shooting for in terms of Quant percentile to get into the 700+ range? I've read a few of your blog posts that say that to get 700 doesn't mean I need to get the 700-800 questions correct -- so I'm guessing it means I need to beef up on the 600-700 level? I have about a month left until test date to get to my target score.
Also, final question - how much prep time would you allot to IR? I haven't been focusing on that and on my CATs I'm generally getting a high 3 (3.5+). In one CAT I managed a 4.5 but obviously I would like that IR score to be higher (without expending so much energy that my Q & V scores decline)
Thanks again - your advice on these forums has kept me sane over the last few months!
In your experience - given that my Verbal is pretty high, what do you think I need to be shooting for in terms of Quant percentile to get into the 700+ range? I've read a few of your blog posts that say that to get 700 doesn't mean I need to get the 700-800 questions correct -- so I'm guessing it means I need to beef up on the 600-700 level? I have about a month left until test date to get to my target score.
Also, final question - how much prep time would you allot to IR? I haven't been focusing on that and on my CATs I'm generally getting a high 3 (3.5+). In one CAT I managed a 4.5 but obviously I would like that IR score to be higher (without expending so much energy that my Q & V scores decline)
Thanks again - your advice on these forums has kept me sane over the last few months!
- StaceyKoprince
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Nice!
There are things you can do and things you can't do...
If you just legitimately don't know how to do any of those 4 (say) questions wrong in a row, there's nothing you can do. It's going to happen sometimes.
If, on the other hand, you see what one of my students saw on her last test (described below), then yes, you need to work on your timing / decision-making.
She was doing really well up to Q10, right on time and at a scoring level that was higher than what she'd been doing in the past. Then, of course, she got some really hard questions, above her level. She spent 3-4+ minutes on them. Naturally, she got them wrong anyway - they were really hard. Then, she saw that she was behind on time, so she got nervous and started speeding up - and missed some additional questions that she actually did know how to do. By the time all was said and done, she missed 8 of the next 10 questions!! She should have missed 3 of the first 4, and she did - they were just too hard. But of the next 6, she could have gotten 3, maybe 4 but only got 1. That made a huge difference to her score. (And she continued to be behind on time and nervous / panicky for the rest of the section, which really didn't help things. She recovered a bit but never got back up to her top level.)
Was something like that going on? If so, you've got to work on timing - which, as you noted, is really about executive decision-making.
If you're aiming for a top 5 school and you don't have a quant background in undergrad or at work, then you want to hit Q45. If you do have a quant background and/or you're going for a 5-15 school, then you want to aim for around a 42+. So you do need to pick up some more points on quant. From there, though, you can lift your overall score by continuing to get better at verbal.
In particular, on verbal, study this:
1) why was the wrong answer so tempting? why did it look like it might be right? (be as explicit as possible; also, now you know this is not a good reason to pick an answer)
2) why was it actually wrong? what specific words indicate that it is wrong and how did I overlook those clues the first time?
3) why did the right answer seem wrong? what made it so tempting to cross off the right answer? why were those things actually okay; what was my error in thinking that they were wrong? (also, now you know that this is not a good reason to eliminate an answer)
4) why was it actually right?
For IR - you've been scoring 3-4 on our tests? Usually, people score better on the real test (for IR). Not everyone, of course, but that's the trend, because our IR is harder. So you may already be fine. Before you go in for the real thing, though, you should test that theory out by taking a GMATPrep test or two.
I'm still getting many questions in a row wrong, which I know is detrimental to my score. I need to work on that
There are things you can do and things you can't do...
If you just legitimately don't know how to do any of those 4 (say) questions wrong in a row, there's nothing you can do. It's going to happen sometimes.
If, on the other hand, you see what one of my students saw on her last test (described below), then yes, you need to work on your timing / decision-making.
She was doing really well up to Q10, right on time and at a scoring level that was higher than what she'd been doing in the past. Then, of course, she got some really hard questions, above her level. She spent 3-4+ minutes on them. Naturally, she got them wrong anyway - they were really hard. Then, she saw that she was behind on time, so she got nervous and started speeding up - and missed some additional questions that she actually did know how to do. By the time all was said and done, she missed 8 of the next 10 questions!! She should have missed 3 of the first 4, and she did - they were just too hard. But of the next 6, she could have gotten 3, maybe 4 but only got 1. That made a huge difference to her score. (And she continued to be behind on time and nervous / panicky for the rest of the section, which really didn't help things. She recovered a bit but never got back up to her top level.)
Was something like that going on? If so, you've got to work on timing - which, as you noted, is really about executive decision-making.
If you're aiming for a top 5 school and you don't have a quant background in undergrad or at work, then you want to hit Q45. If you do have a quant background and/or you're going for a 5-15 school, then you want to aim for around a 42+. So you do need to pick up some more points on quant. From there, though, you can lift your overall score by continuing to get better at verbal.
In particular, on verbal, study this:
1) why was the wrong answer so tempting? why did it look like it might be right? (be as explicit as possible; also, now you know this is not a good reason to pick an answer)
2) why was it actually wrong? what specific words indicate that it is wrong and how did I overlook those clues the first time?
3) why did the right answer seem wrong? what made it so tempting to cross off the right answer? why were those things actually okay; what was my error in thinking that they were wrong? (also, now you know that this is not a good reason to eliminate an answer)
4) why was it actually right?
For IR - you've been scoring 3-4 on our tests? Usually, people score better on the real test (for IR). Not everyone, of course, but that's the trend, because our IR is harder. So you may already be fine. Before you go in for the real thing, though, you should test that theory out by taking a GMATPrep test or two.
Stacey Koprince
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Director, Content & Curriculum
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Hi Stephanie,
Thanks for the replies to all my questions. I have one (hopefully) final question. I have 25 days left until test day. Any suggestions on how best to use my time? I'm pretty strong in verbal (the last test I took I got in the 90th percentile) and recently I did only a math section where I scored Q43 (obviously that may be inflated given that I only did a math section but ... I suppose I'm trying to convey that within range of my goal/the range I want to be in is attainable. I am planning to take a full CAT tonight (one of the ones from the GMAC) but aside from taking multiple CATs (which I know is not advisable) I'm at a slight loss for how best to spend my remaining time.
How long of a "break" do you suggest taking before actual test day? I realize this is not a lot of information to go off of, so if you need more details, I'm happy to provide. But even a generic recommendation for how to spend the 3 weeks before test day would be great. You've been so helpful throughout this whole process that I thought I'd take a stab at this one last question!
Thanks again, for all your help!
Thanks for the replies to all my questions. I have one (hopefully) final question. I have 25 days left until test day. Any suggestions on how best to use my time? I'm pretty strong in verbal (the last test I took I got in the 90th percentile) and recently I did only a math section where I scored Q43 (obviously that may be inflated given that I only did a math section but ... I suppose I'm trying to convey that within range of my goal/the range I want to be in is attainable. I am planning to take a full CAT tonight (one of the ones from the GMAC) but aside from taking multiple CATs (which I know is not advisable) I'm at a slight loss for how best to spend my remaining time.
How long of a "break" do you suggest taking before actual test day? I realize this is not a lot of information to go off of, so if you need more details, I'm happy to provide. But even a generic recommendation for how to spend the 3 weeks before test day would be great. You've been so helpful throughout this whole process that I thought I'd take a stab at this one last question!
Thanks again, for all your help!
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
And by Stephanie, I mean Stacey! I am SO SO SO sorry about that - I'm mortified. Please accept my sincerest apologies. Very sorry, STACEY!
Thanks again for everything!
Thanks again for everything!
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Just took a GMAC test last night and scored a 7 on IR, Q45 & V41 for an overall 710! Hoping this means I'm in good shape and this wasn't a fluke! As mentioned in my earlier question - any tips you have on what to review these last few weeks so I don't loose steam/slip but rather increase my score, would be great!
Thanks again!
As mentioned in my earlier question - any tips you have on what to review these last few weeks so I don't loose steam/slip but rather increase my score, would be great!Thanks again!
- StaceyKoprince
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Don't worry about the name slip - that happens all the time. I was at a wedding last night, in fact, and someone there also called me Stephanie!
Great job on your practice CAT. It's unlikely to be a fluke, but there is natural variation on these tests, so you'll take another and see how that one goes too.
My general rule is: up until 2 weeks before the test, you're still working on trying to improve your weaknesses. In general, you're trying to improve your "easiest" weaknesses, or what I call the "low hanging fruit" - things like careless mistakes, problems you get right but that take you a little too long (like 30 to 60 seconds longer than average), that kind of thing.
Then, about 2 weeks before* you're going to switch over to more of a comprehensive review, while still doing some work on things like careless mistakes. You're also going to be developing your Game Plan. (Where should I guess? Where can I give myself a little extra time? What do I do if I suddenly realize I'm going too fast or too slow? Etc.) Here's how to do that:
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... game-plan/
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... -2-review/
*Note for others reading this: the last 2 weeks thing can be compressed to 7 to 10 days if necessary. For a first test, it's best to give yourself the full 2 weeks. If you are re-taking the test, it's okay to compress if you're not taking all that much time to study for the re-take. For instance, if you're only going to study for 5 weeks for the re-take, you probably aren't going to reserve a full 2 weeks for review.
Okay, let me know how it goes - good luck!
Great job on your practice CAT. It's unlikely to be a fluke, but there is natural variation on these tests, so you'll take another and see how that one goes too.
My general rule is: up until 2 weeks before the test, you're still working on trying to improve your weaknesses. In general, you're trying to improve your "easiest" weaknesses, or what I call the "low hanging fruit" - things like careless mistakes, problems you get right but that take you a little too long (like 30 to 60 seconds longer than average), that kind of thing.
Then, about 2 weeks before* you're going to switch over to more of a comprehensive review, while still doing some work on things like careless mistakes. You're also going to be developing your Game Plan. (Where should I guess? Where can I give myself a little extra time? What do I do if I suddenly realize I'm going too fast or too slow? Etc.) Here's how to do that:
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... game-plan/
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog ... -2-review/
*Note for others reading this: the last 2 weeks thing can be compressed to 7 to 10 days if necessary. For a first test, it's best to give yourself the full 2 weeks. If you are re-taking the test, it's okay to compress if you're not taking all that much time to study for the re-take. For instance, if you're only going to study for 5 weeks for the re-take, you probably aren't going to reserve a full 2 weeks for review.
Okay, let me know how it goes - good luck!
Stacey Koprince
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Director, Content & Curriculum
ManhattanPrep
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Stacey! Thank you for everything! I just took the GMATand scored a 700 - Q47 V40. I am so excited but have a quick paranoid question. I think I'm okay but need to make sure - I ran out of time on my AWA. I finished completely but was re-reading when the clock hit "0" so I didn't have a chance to hit "next" on the essay. I'm still okay right? The essay will count even though I didn't click next and the clock "expired" on me?
Thank you for everything. I could NOT have done it without you!
Ruchi
Thank you for everything. I could NOT have done it without you!
Ruchi
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
I actually went back and read the MGMT Essay book and saw that there is a sentence that says even if you don't hit next/confirm whatever you have written is submitted - so, I think I'm good but wanted to confirm!
Thanks!
Thanks!
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
Stacey,
I had posted on the forums (username: RP15) asking whether or not my essay would count if time expired on me but that question is now moot as I received my score and got a 6.0 on the essay. I wanted to take this opportunity to sincerely thank you for everything you have done for me - and everyone else on the forum. Thank you for always taking the time to answer our questions (even if they are repetitive) and understanding the stress of the GMAT so acutely that you're able to address and appease our (well, my) concerns. I could not have gotten through GMAT studying without you.
I hate to ask your opinion on something while I am "wrapping up" and giving thanks, but I've come to trust your perspective and advice - so if you could just humor me for a moment longer, I will be out of your hair soon
I know that my score of 700 isn't AMAZZING. It doesn't automatically get me in anywhere. What is your suggestion on whether or not I should retake (esp now that you can completely cancel your scores?) I am aiming for schools like Standford and Harvard. I know their avg. is much higher than my score, but my score does fall within the "80% of admitted students" range for top schools. Moreover, I know they like people who have worked at "big name companies" (which is not my case). The breakdown of my score is as follows:
Q - 47
V - 40
IR - 8
AWA - 6.0
Total - 700
Again, thank you so much for everything. If it was appropriate for me to ask you for your address so that I could send you a basket of something delicious as a "thanks" I would. I could not have gotten through this process without you and your help.
Thanks again!
I had posted on the forums (username: RP15) asking whether or not my essay would count if time expired on me but that question is now moot as I received my score and got a 6.0 on the essay. I wanted to take this opportunity to sincerely thank you for everything you have done for me - and everyone else on the forum. Thank you for always taking the time to answer our questions (even if they are repetitive) and understanding the stress of the GMAT so acutely that you're able to address and appease our (well, my) concerns. I could not have gotten through GMAT studying without you.
I hate to ask your opinion on something while I am "wrapping up" and giving thanks, but I've come to trust your perspective and advice - so if you could just humor me for a moment longer, I will be out of your hair soon
I know that my score of 700 isn't AMAZZING. It doesn't automatically get me in anywhere. What is your suggestion on whether or not I should retake (esp now that you can completely cancel your scores?) I am aiming for schools like Standford and Harvard. I know their avg. is much higher than my score, but my score does fall within the "80% of admitted students" range for top schools. Moreover, I know they like people who have worked at "big name companies" (which is not my case). The breakdown of my score is as follows:
Q - 47
V - 40
IR - 8
AWA - 6.0
Total - 700
Again, thank you so much for everything. If it was appropriate for me to ask you for your address so that I could send you a basket of something delicious as a "thanks" I would. I could not have gotten through this process without you and your help.
Thanks again!
- StaceyKoprince
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Re: CAT Scores Decreasing
You are very welcome! I also did receive the email that you sent in to our student services team - thanks.
As you now know, if time runs out, the test will accept anything that you have already entered. (This also applies to the multiple choice sections - if you have entered an answer and the test times out, it will still accept that answer.)
Okay, on to your question. There is no GMAT score that will automatically get you in anywhere - the GMAT is not used that way in b-school admissions. The GMAT is more of a "threshold" indicator. They want to make sure that you are good enough on the academic side of things, but beyond that, they are going to decide based upon your work experience, recommendations, etc. (And it is true that people from a lot of big-name companies do get in - but the schools don't necessarily prefer them. There are just a lot of strong applicants applying from those companies!)
Your 700 is good enough for any school. You also don't have a weaker subscore in Q or V - both are good. So the issue now is doing a great job on the rest of your application! Good luck and let me know how it goes.
As you now know, if time runs out, the test will accept anything that you have already entered. (This also applies to the multiple choice sections - if you have entered an answer and the test times out, it will still accept that answer.)
Okay, on to your question. There is no GMAT score that will automatically get you in anywhere - the GMAT is not used that way in b-school admissions. The GMAT is more of a "threshold" indicator. They want to make sure that you are good enough on the academic side of things, but beyond that, they are going to decide based upon your work experience, recommendations, etc. (And it is true that people from a lot of big-name companies do get in - but the schools don't necessarily prefer them. There are just a lot of strong applicants applying from those companies!)
Your 700 is good enough for any school. You also don't have a weaker subscore in Q or V - both are good. So the issue now is doing a great job on the rest of your application! Good luck and let me know how it goes.
Stacey Koprince
Instructor
Director, Content & Curriculum
ManhattanPrep
Instructor
Director, Content & Curriculum
ManhattanPrep
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