COMPARISION AND MODIFIERS

[GUEST]

1) This question is with reference to Q1 , Pg 101 SC Guide:
As with other children in her neighborhood who were home-schooled, Joan sometimes missed being in a classroom with her peers.

The answer given substitutes "As with" with " Like..."
I am having difficulty with the use of AS and LIKE, based on certain discussions in class.

Could "As did other children ........, Joan sometimes missed being......." also be a correct answer? Please comment on the use of "As did(or some other verb)" rather than "Like", when the second clause of the sentence also has a verb.

I thought there is a proximity issue with "Like." The sentence wants to compare "neighborhood home-schooled Children" to Joan, but what is being compared here is home-schooled to Joan, unless I am not getting the comparision right.


2) The second question is with regards to the introduction of a modifier introduced by "THAT".
THAT has proximity issues and should be placed right next to the subjects it is modifying. I have come across some questions where this rule is not applied seriously. I cannot point to the specific question, but in general terms, there seems to be some flexibility in the use of "THAT." It is used to refer to subjects that are not immediately preceeding it. I made up my own example to mimic the application of THAT in this manner:

e.g. I have come up with an idea to do something using the newspaper that will make me rich.

Here THAT is immediately after "newspaper" and according to the proximity rule, the sentence means that the newspaper will make me rich.
But THAT is actually referring to "the idea ...." that will make me rich. However this application of THAT is approved of. Please comment, as this could sometimes be the factor in picking the correct answer choice.

[StaceyKoprince]

Good questions!

Yes, if you want to use "as" you need to have some verb in there, such as "as did." For the sentence you gave, read it this way:
As with X (one noun), Joan (the other noun) sometimes Y (applies to both nouns).
where X = "other children in her neighborhood who were home-schooled"
and Y = "missed being in a classroom with her peers"

For our X, above, "other children" is the main noun in that clause. "in her neighborhood" is a prepositional phrase and "who were home-schooled" is a modifier - both are referring to the main noun, children.

Proximity CAN make things more clear when comparing nouns using like, but proximity is not an absolute requirement.

For your second question, the word "that" CAN introduce a modifier but it can also be used in other ways - it is not limited to use as the start of a modifier only. So that may be one issue here. Also, although the vast majority of the time, "that" does touch the noun it is modifying, there are exceptions (there are exceptions to pretty much every rule in English grammar, unfortunately!). The "that" EITHER needs to touch the noun it is modifying OR it needs to be in very close proximity to the correct main noun preceding it, even if there is a short phrase or clause separating it from that main noun.

Examples below. underline = main noun, [brackets] = modifier
1. The house [that has the white fence] is up for sale.
2. The aura of invincibility [that surrounded her] was so strong, it almost felt palpable.
3.The scientist believed that the mouse was a genius.

1 is a standard example. 2 is an example of the exception to this rule. The words in between the main noun and the modifier should be few in number and a necessary desciptor of the main noun, but I do need to say what kind of aura I'm talking about or the sentence doesn't make a lot of sense. 3 is an example in which "that" is NOT used as a noun modifier.

The example you use below to create a situation 2 does not actually work - it doesn't fit the rules / situation I've described above. Essentially, the words between the MAIN noun and the "that" must be necessary descriptors of the main noun. Prepositional phrases are commonly used for this structure, or short phrases set off by commas.

[Guest]

Hi Stacey,

Thank you very much for your response. For the second question, your explanation does make sense, the original question did have a phrase with an "of - construction" following it.

I just wanted to clarify one more thing with regards to the use of "AS" vs "LIKE". Are there any specific rules apart from 1) use LIKE when comparing nouns/noun phrases and 2) use AS while comparing verb pharases. If the question reagrding the school children and Joan had both options, A) Like and b) As did, would one be a better answer that the other?

Once again, thank you for your time and responses.

[StaceyKoprince]

They wouldn't give you both a correctly constructed "like" option and a correctly constructed "as" option - there's no way to choose the "better" one because they're both exactly the same (which is to say, correct).

You can write almost any comparison you want correctly using "as" or "like" just as long as you properly construct the entire comparison.