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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by madhu1989 Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:15 am

Ron, I'm very sorry to reopen this thread, but I just don't seem to understand how A can be the answer! Im not able to let go of this problem as it's eating my mind. I read all the explanation backwards and I don't seem to understand the explanation.

RonPurewal Wrote:
tgt.ivyleague Wrote:Hi there Guys .....

choice (a) supports the argument because it does exactly the opposite of what choices (b), (d), and (e) do: it shows that the fund-raisers are NOT any more successful in their outreach to new donors than are any other fund-raisers. if that's true, that is strong support for the idea that the high percentage is just an artifact of sticking to the most likely donors (which is the point of the argument).


As one user rightly pointed out how can we assume that Other university fund raisers weren't successful in bringing in donations from new donors.

I just don't seem to understand. Can you please clarify. Apologies again for bring this back.

Thanks,
Madhu
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by RonPurewal Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:08 am

Ok, if you've been thinking about this problem for a million years, it's time to forget about this specific problem, and to consider an analogy instead.

Joe has gotten 80% of his practice problems correct -- a substantially higher percentage than any of his study partners have gotten correct. But I don't think this means Joe is doing a better job; I just think it means he's trying easier problems.

Choice A is equivalent to saying Joe gets the same percentage of harder problems correct as his study partners do.

If you can see how this works, then you can also see how the original problem works.
Easier problems = people who have already donated in the past
Harder problems = new prospects (people who haven't donated before)
Get problem correct = successfully get a donation

There you go.
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by madhu1989 Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:32 am

RonPurewal Wrote:Ok, if you've been thinking about this problem for a million years, it's time to forget about this specific problem, and to consider an analogy instead.

Joe has gotten 80% of his practice problems correct -- a substantially higher percentage than any of his study partners have gotten correct. But I don't think this means Joe is doing a better job; I just think it means he's trying easier problems.

Choice A is equivalent to saying Joe gets the same percentage of harder problems correct as his study partners do.

If you can see how this works, then you can also see how the original problem works.
Easier problems = people who have already donated in the past
Harder problems = new prospects (people who haven't donated before)
Get problem correct = successfully get a donation

There you go.



WOW ! Brilliant ! Thank you so much Ron!
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by RonPurewal Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:43 am

Not "brilliant", really; it's just an understanding of where the actual issue is with CR.

If you are having trouble with CR problems, the logic of the passage will NEVER be the issue.
The issue will ALWAYS be that you're having trouble personalizing / connecting intuitively with the material
in the question.

The analogy posted above is proof: If the logic were the issue, the analogy would be just as hard for you to understand as the original. It's not, so, there you go.

Note the other corollary here, which is that trying to study "logic rules" for CR passages is 100% completely a waste of your time. Focus on immersing yourself in the situations"”i.e., imagining that you're INVOLVED in the situation, to whatever extent possible"”instead.
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by madhu1989 Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:47 am

Yup. I can't agree with you more Ron. But given the pressure to answer the question within 2-3 minutes, I'm just trying my level best to do that. Any suggestions for tackling the obstacle?
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by RonPurewal Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:16 am

Involving yourself personally in the passages is not a time commitment.
In fact, it's almost certainly a negative time commitment. If you can reach a point where you're personally interested in what you're reading, then you'll almost always get through the material more efficiently and with greater understanding.
You may not read faster, but you will definitely absorb more of the information "” meaning that it will be much less likely that you'll have to go back and read again.

As far as how to do this, well, here's a rough sketch.

Step 0/
Don't hate the test, and don't completely not care about the test. (You may have to read that second one more than once.)

If you actively dislike something, or are completely apathetic toward it, the chance that you'll be able to understand how it works is very low.

1/
Stop thinking of CR as an "academic" task that requires "studying".

2a/
If a CR passage describes a situation in which YOU could reasonably be involved, in any capacity, then put YOURSELF into the situation, and think about it.
E.g., here, you could be the head of the fund-raising effort. You could be examining your fund-raisers' results, and wondering about whether that weirdly high success rate actually represents a genuinely exceptional performance.

2b/
If not, then genuinely try to put yourself into a state where you care about the topic in the passage.
One easy way to do this is to imagine talking to a friend who really DOES care about the situation. (My friends are interested in all manner of things that I couldn't care less about, but, when they're talking about those things, I become interested enough to think about them.)

And that's pretty much what is going on here. More comments on #0 and #1 below.
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by RonPurewal Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:32 am

Regarding #1 "”

As you've probably noticed by now, CR doesn't involve ANY outside knowledge, nor does it require ANY "special" thought processes that you haven't already been using since before puberty. It just requires focus, concentration, and a fair amount of real-world thinking. (The main reason why 12- or 13-year-olds wouldn't do too well on CR is that the writing in the passages is too dense, and too formal, for them to readily comprehend.)

The problem with "academic" thinking "” rules, memorization, etc. "” is that it actually destroys "real-world thinking" / "common sense". In fact, that's basically the point of memorizing anything at all, ever "” so that you don't have to think about it.
Obviously, that kind of thinking has value in many areas of life. (E.g., lots of people would be dead if you had to think carefully about what a red light means, rather than memorizing that it means "stop".) But the entire reason why CR is on the test is that it's absolutely impossible to do with memorized "rules".

The only "preparation" you need to do for CR is to un-learn the mentality of "rules" / memorization / formal logic. Once you get rid of those, CR is really just an exercise in normal everyday thinking. Really, it is. This is hard for some people to believe, but, yeah.
This is not an easy thing for everyone.
For some students, it takes literally about 5-10 minutes to un-learn absolutely all of that ("Holy ****, I can't believe I've been doing this the wrong way for so long" "” and then they immediately start doing it the right way). These students tend to be the ones who've always hated memorization, and who have been studying that way only because they've somehow been convinced (by themselves or by others) that this test is a memorization-based "academic" task.
For other people "” people who like to memorize things, and have always been good at doing so "” the process is much longer and more difficult.
The worst-case scenario would be a student who derives emotional security from memorizing tons and tons of facts, and who feels distinctly nervous at the thought of going into any thought process without a memorized protocol. This kind of student may very well never be able to do well on CR "” but that's ultimately a good thing, because anyone who's so extremely attached to memorization really shouldn't be considering business (which is always changing, all the time, forever) as a career.

In any case, if you have specific "rules" or "patterns" in your head for CR, you should basically get rid of every single one of them. Every single one.
(This is not a reference to general concepts, such as the idea that negating an assumption destroys an argument. That's not a template or a formula; that's basically just defining what "assumption" means.)

When you see specific instances in a CR book or guide (e.g., our strategy guide, or the CR bible), you should NOT memorize them "” because you shouldn't have to. Every single one of them should be an example of reasoning that you can already do "” and that you've been able to do, given simple enough topics, since you were 10 or 11 years old. The only additional complications here are (a) that the writing is dense and formal, and (b) that the topics discussed are remote from most people's everyday lives.
If you see a "pattern" that looks difficult or unfamiliar, just try to make your own analogy for it, as I did here with the % of problems correct. It may take you a while at first, but it's worth every minute.
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by RonPurewal Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:32 am

More on the "CR is just real-world thinking" bit"”

For instance, I didn't just create that analogy by pure magic out of nowhere. I just thought of one student I've taught, who was very, very timid about trying any problem that was outside of his "comfort zone". I.e., he wouldn't even try to solve a math problem if it wasn't already perfectly clear that he'd be able to get it right. So, unsurprisingly enough, he got a very high percentage of problems correct.

CR is about things that actually happen in the world of planet earth, not the imaginary world of pure boolean logic.

Non-coincidentally enough, the same is true for business management, where this road is eventually headed.
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by RonPurewal Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:37 am

The last point I want to make here is the supreme importance of step #0. You HAVE to get yourself to care about the situations in the passages (and not in a negative way).

As an example, I don't have to point any further than the idea that you immediately understood my "percent of problems correct" example, even though (as you wrote) the original Smithtown U. example has been driving you up the wall for a long time.

There is, of course, absolutely no difference at all between those two passages in terms of logic or complexity. They're both built on EXACTLY the same "template".

So, what's the difference?
The difference is that you care about getting problems correct, and you don't care about an imaginary university. That's the ONLY difference.

As you can see, it's a very, very big difference indeed. And it is just as big on every single problem in the entire CR section.
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by madhu1989 Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:04 am

I totally agree with every word you had to say. Makes total sense to me Atleast. Thank you so so so much Ron for spending the time to explain all that! Really appreciate it ! :)
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by jlucero Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:52 pm

Glad that his analogy helped.
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by RonPurewal Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:49 am

madhu1989 Wrote:I totally agree with every word you had to say. Makes total sense to me Atleast. Thank you so so so much Ron for spending the time to explain all that! Really appreciate it ! :)


Yep.
Just remember"”there's no "learning" in CR. Just un-learning the weird way people read things in classrooms.
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Ron you are wrong??!!!!!!: Smithtown University

by Everything OR Nothing Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:09 am

The answer is not the one that Ron is saying. How come. check this screenshot.

I saw this in verbal set extra package.
It says D is the answer? How can i attach the screen shot?? its nt letting me attach image. why the hel its so complex to attach image here.?
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by Everything OR Nothing Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:20 am

Check it out official GMAt says D is correct.


http://postimg.org/image/8g6nvf0ur/31af34c4/
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Re: CR: Smithtown University's fund-raisers succeeded

by RonPurewal Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:45 am

firozahmed.0056 Wrote:Check it out official GMAt says D is correct.


http://postimg.org/image/8g6nvf0ur/31af34c4/



Nope.

* There's a big X in front of choice D. The big X means that a choice is wrong, not that it's right.

* This image is from a different question.
The question itself is cut off, but the answer explanations make it clear that, in the image, the question is asking us to weaken the argument.

In this thread, the question is asking us to provide more support for the argument.

Two different questions.
(There are several examples of multiple official CR problems that are accompanied by the same passage.)