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RonPurewal
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Re: Re:

by RonPurewal Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:44 am

thanghnvn Wrote:
RonPurewal Wrote:
Anonymous Wrote:what is the difference between C and D?

a few things about choice c:
(1) 'who were still harboring' is wordy, esp. in comparison to the more concise version 'still harboring' presented in choice d**
(2) 'is privy' doesn't make as much sense as will be privy', because the comments to which the person will be privy haven't been posted yet (it's a future occurrence)
(3) 'would add' can be interpreted in two ways: either as a subjunctive (for a hypothetical that isn't actually true, as in 'i wish you dressed more nicely') or as the past-tense version of 'will'. the first doesn't make sense, because this hypothetical could clearly be true, and the second doesn't make sense because the hack is being described in the present tense, not the past tense. 'might', a present tense construction, makes more sense.

choice d, on the other hand, uses the more concise form 'still harboring' and the correct-tense forms 'will be' and 'might'.


Thank you Ron
gmat accept the use of "do" in the "so that " purpose clause. evidence for this is the following sentence from gmatprep.
The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by constructing canals so that the water now empties into the Mississippi by way of the Illinois River.

(A) Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by constructing
(B) Rivers had originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but they have been redirected by constructing
(C) Rivers, which originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan but have been redirected by the construction of
(D) Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by the construction of
(E) Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, have been redirected through the construction of

so, there is no problem with " is" in choice C.


this problem is fundamentally different from the "privy" issue here.
as i stated above, "is privy" doesn't make sense, because the events to which so-and-so will be privy haven't happened yet"”they are in the future.

in the sentence you've posted here, the rivers have already been redirected, so the use of the present tense is perfectly sensible (and the use of the future tense would be nonsense).

they're not the same.


"would do" can not be hypothetical and past form of will inhere. I aggree with you. but both "would do" and "will do" can be used for present time. "would do" is less certain and more polite than "will do".

however, "would do" is still used to say of certainty while "might do" is used to say of possibility. This make choice C wrong because the meaning should be a possiblity not a certainty


I don't understand what you are saying here.

I will tell you one thing, though: If you are concerned with "polite" language, well, don't be.
The whole point of "polite" spoken language is to AVOID directness and frankness"”two qualities that are absolutely essential in written language, particularly of the type tested in SC.

one question, pls, help.

I see "would do " appear frequently in present time on gmat and on good material . I do not fully understand the use of "would do" in present time and grammar books do not say much of this point. pls explain more the use of "would do" in present time not in past time or unreal hypothetical action.

thank you.


If you "see it appear frequently", please cite some of those instances. Thanks.

(Otherwise, if you are looking for a perfectly general discussion of "would", just use Google and read the top results.)
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by vietmoi937 Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:25 pm

thanghnvn wrote:
RonPurewal wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
what is the difference between C and D?

a few things about choice c:
(1) 'who were still harboring' is wordy, esp. in comparison to the more concise version 'still harboring' presented in choice d**
(2) 'is privy' doesn't make as much sense as will be privy', because the comments to which the person will be privy haven't been posted yet (it's a future occurrence)
(3) 'would add' can be interpreted in two ways: either as a subjunctive (for a hypothetical that isn't actually true, as in 'i wish you dressed more nicely') or as the past-tense version of 'will'. the first doesn't make sense, because this hypothetical could clearly be true, and the second doesn't make sense because the hack is being described in the present tense, not the past tense. 'might', a present tense construction, makes more sense.

choice d, on the other hand, uses the more concise form 'still harboring' and the correct-tense forms 'will be' and 'might'.


Thank you Ron
gmat accept the use of "do" in the "so that " purpose clause. evidence for this is the following sentence from gmatprep.
The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by constructing canals so that the water now empties into the Mississippi by way of the Illinois River.

(A) Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by constructing
(B) Rivers had originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but they have been redirected by constructing
(C) Rivers, which originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan but have been redirected by the construction of
(D) Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by the construction of
(E) Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, have been redirected through the construction of

so, there is no problem with " is" in choice C.


this problem is fundamentally different from the "privy" issue here.
as i stated above, "is privy" doesn't make sense, because the events to which so-and-so will be privy haven't happened yet"”they are in the future.

in the sentence you've posted here, the rivers have already been redirected, so the use of the present tense is perfectly sensible (and the use of the future tense would be nonsense).

they're not the same.

thank you Ron,
You mean that in the "so that" purpose clause, if the meaning is present, we use "do" and if the meaning is future, we use "will do"

but the present tense can show the future meaning as in

If I learn gmat well, I will get good score on gmat.

in many cases which is talked about in grammar books, present tense or even present continuous tense is used to show the future action.

some grammar book said that in the "so that " purpose clause, the future time (can,will) must be used. The matter is that whether gmat follow this rule. I do not think gmat follow this rule because there is no evidence in og /gmat prep material which show the rule of gmat. I also think that gmat dose not test the use of tense in the "so that"purpose clause. gmat is hard but very basic.
I use "find" fuction in pdf file to search for the sentenses with "so that" . If I find out something relevant to the use of "so that "clause which gmat accept, I will post in this thread.
I wait for new version of Manhantan SC book to explain this point.

I conclude that gmat dose not test tense in "so that " purpose clause. the last barrier for us to reach OA in this question is the difference between "would do" and "might do" , between a certainty and a possibility.

thank you Ron.
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by RonPurewal Thu May 02, 2013 10:36 pm

I don't detect any actual questions in that last post, so I guess we're all good here.
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Re:

by cyprus Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:39 pm

Hi Ron,

Sorry about bumping an old thread but I'm confused why you call 'might' a present tense construction. I see in the posts that follow this one that 'might' can be used as (i) the past tense of 'may' OR (ii) hypothetical subjunctive. If 'might' in option (D) is correct in the sense of a hypothetical subjunctive, then my question to you is - by the same token, 'would' could also be used? I mean, at the split 'would add' vs 'might add', I don't see how we could easily eliminate 'would add.'

Thanks!

RonPurewal Wrote:
Anonymous Wrote:what is the difference between C and D?

a few things about choice c:
(1) 'who were still harboring' is wordy, esp. in comparison to the more concise version 'still harboring' presented in choice d**
(2) 'is privy' doesn't make as much sense as will be privy', because the comments to which the person will be privy haven't been posted yet (it's a future occurrence)
(3) 'would add' can be interpreted in two ways: either as a subjunctive (for a hypothetical that isn't actually true, as in 'i wish you dressed more nicely') or as the past-tense version of 'will'. the first doesn't make sense, because this hypothetical could clearly be true, and the second doesn't make sense because the hack is being described in the present tense, not the past tense. 'might', a present tense construction, makes more sense.

choice d, on the other hand, uses the more concise form 'still harboring' and the correct-tense forms 'will be' and 'might'.
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by mcmebk Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:22 am

Hi Ron

I have a small question regarding the usage of "so that this person will be privy..." in Option D.

As far as I can see, the sentense was written from a past time point, as evidenced by the tense "uncovered" - so the "would" should be to replace "will" here, right?

i.e: The governement issued a plan to fix the roads so that people would find it more convenient to travel.

Isn't this sentence perfectly fine? Or do we need to use "will find it more convenient"?

Thank you Ron.
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by RonPurewal Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:10 am

mcmebk Wrote:Hi Ron

I have a small question regarding the usage of "so that this person will be privy..." in Option D.

As far as I can see, the sentense was written from a past time point, as evidenced by the tense "uncovered" - so the "would" should be to replace "will" here, right?

i.e: The governement issued a plan to fix the roads so that people would find it more convenient to travel.

Isn't this sentence perfectly fine? Or do we need to use "will find it more convenient"?

Thank you Ron.


It all depends on context.

If you're talking about something that's still in the future -- even though the first thing is in the past -- then that's fine.

E.g., if a father tells his twelve-year-old, I invested money when you were born, so that you will have enough for college, then that makes sense, because the twelve-year-old is not in college yet.
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by thanghnvn Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:24 am

thank you , Ron,

senquence of tense, which is explained in grammar books, mainly focus on the dependence of verbs in dependent clauses on the verb of the main clause, which is in the past. the rule of sequence said that when the verb in the main clause is in the past, the verb in dependent clauses must be in the past with the exception that the verb in dependant clause talk about general fact. consider

yesterday, two boy knew that water boit at 100 C.

from choice D, we know that there are many other cases, in which the verb may not be in the past, when the verb in the main clause is in the past.
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by RonPurewal Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:59 am

thanghnvn Wrote:thank you , Ron,

senquence of tense, which is explained in grammar books, mainly focus on the dependence of verbs in dependent clauses on the verb of the main clause, which is in the past. the rule of sequence said that when the verb in the main clause is in the past, the verb in dependent clauses must be in the past with the exception that the verb in dependant clause talk about general fact. consider

yesterday, two boy knew that water boit at 100 C.

from choice D, we know that there are many other cases, in which the verb may not be in the past, when the verb in the main clause is in the past.


Are you asking a question here, or just making a general observation? Hard to tell.

If you are indeed asking a question, please ask it more explicitly. Thanks.
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by josefdong Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:52 am

RonPurewal Wrote:ALL -ing constructions follow the same rule.
-ING forms don't have a tense of their own; they ADOPT THE TENSE OF THE CLAUSE THAT THEY MODIFY.

since the "harboring" modifier is tagged onto a past-tense clause (whose main verb is "uncovered"), it's implied that "harboring" also refers to the past tense, simultaneous with "uncovered".


Hi Tutors,

I've noticed two things: "E-mail exchanges are private" in the correct choice, and the word "still".

Does these things indicate that those people are still holding the illusion now?If so, why "harboring" has the same tense as "uncovered"? (I ask this because I once thought A,B, and C were all wrong in the first few words. "still harbored", "had still been harboring" and "were harboring" all lose the sense of "now harboring". )

Also, Ron just mentioned in the preceding post that "since the "harboring" modifier is tagged onto a past-tense clause (whose main verb is "uncovered")" , however, I cannot get this idea because the structure is "In a blow to those( still harboring...)". Obviously, "harboring" modifier modifies "those", and the prepostion phrase, in turn, modifies "uncovered"-clause.

RonPurewal Wrote:same reason for both #2 and #3
if you're talking about GENERAL TRUTHS, then you use the present tense (regardless of the tense(s) in the surrounding context).


Why "E-mail exchanges are private" is a general truth?
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by RonPurewal Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:02 am

"Emial exchanges are private" refers to an idea that is not attached to any particular timeframe. That idea has been rendered questionable by the actions described, but the idea itself is no less an idea.

Think about this example:
In the 16th century, explorers sailed around the globe, forever disproving the idea that the Earth is flat.
--> You wouldn't write "was" here, because it's an idea. (People could still think that the Earth is flat, although they'd be wrong.)
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by bonniewjx Sat May 03, 2014 3:35 am

I have a little silly question here..Maybe i don't grasp the grammar here..

can "those who" be followed by "VERBing" without any verb?
isn't "those who still harboring..."a run-on sentence?
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by RonPurewal Sun May 04, 2014 11:49 am

bonniewjx Wrote:I have a little silly question here..Maybe i don't grasp the grammar here..

can "those who" be followed by "VERBing" without any verb?
isn't "those who still harboring..."a run-on sentence?


In the choices presented here, I see the following versions, neither of which does what you describe here.

"...those who [verb]" (were harboring, had been harboring, etc.)
"...those still harboring"

Both of these are fine. The latter is like "I see the curtains hanging on the wall."

Which choice are you looking at?
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by AbhilashM94 Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:41 am

jnelson0612 Wrote:Rachel, very good question. I'll tell you my own process when I first saw this question:
1) notice split between who still/who had/still. Assume that it is probably just "still", because I don't need the extra word "who". The answer is not likely to be B, "who had still been harboring"; I don't need the "had". However, keep going and looking for other splits.
2) Next split: "still harboring the illusion that E-mail exchanges ARE/HAD BEEN private". Well, since this is talking about the an ongoing present situation, it doesn't make sense that these people are still harboring the illusion that the emails "had been" private, but now are not. Drop E.
3) next split: "trick for enabling/enabling/that will enable". Good split here; it has to be "a trick THAT will enable . . .". Knock off A, B, and C. Pick D.

I just go word by word, carefully looking for splits, until I see splits that help me make eliminations. It's really easy to blow by some useful splits, but going word by word helps you avoid this problem. If I don't see splits then I look for common errors such as parallelism and incorrect pronouns.


Can you pls. elaborate on #3?
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Re: In a blow to those who still harbored the illusion

by jlucero Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:13 am

AbhilashM94 Wrote:
jnelson0612 Wrote:Rachel, very good question. I'll tell you my own process when I first saw this question:
1) notice split between who still/who had/still. Assume that it is probably just "still", because I don't need the extra word "who". The answer is not likely to be B, "who had still been harboring"; I don't need the "had". However, keep going and looking for other splits.
2) Next split: "still harboring the illusion that E-mail exchanges ARE/HAD BEEN private". Well, since this is talking about the an ongoing present situation, it doesn't make sense that these people are still harboring the illusion that the emails "had been" private, but now are not. Drop E.
3) next split: "trick for enabling/enabling/that will enable". Good split here; it has to be "a trick THAT will enable . . .". Knock off A, B, and C. Pick D.

I just go word by word, carefully looking for splits, until I see splits that help me make eliminations. It's really easy to blow by some useful splits, but going word by word helps you avoid this problem. If I don't see splits then I look for common errors such as parallelism and incorrect pronouns.


Can you pls. elaborate on #3?


After a preposition, such as to, for, into, etc., you use gerunds (nouns that end in -ing) to express an idea:

I am against smoking in public places.
She is good at speaking English.
I went home after leaving the party.

But with more complicated uses, especially on the GMAT, it makes it clearer to use a THAT + clause expression when the idea gets more complicated:

A watchdog group recently uncovered a trick (THAT will enable/enables an interloper to rig an email...)

It's probably not a perfect rule, but learn to recognize tendencies on the GMAT. The safest way to express a longer idea is the word "that", which allows another verb to follow. If the idea is simple, then you can use just a preposition+gerund:

A watchdog group recently uncovered a trick for spying
A watchdog group recently uncovered a trick that allows the government to spy on foreign governments.
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Re:

by FanPurewal Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:19 pm

RonPurewal Wrote:
Anonymous Wrote:what is the difference between C and D?

a few things about choice c:
(1) 'who were still harboring' is wordy, esp. in comparison to the more concise version 'still harboring' presented in choice d**
(2) 'is privy' doesn't make as much sense as will be privy', because the comments to which the person will be privy haven't been posted yet (it's a future occurrence)
(3) 'would add' can be interpreted in two ways: either as a subjunctive (for a hypothetical that isn't actually true, as in 'i wish you dressed more nicely') or as the past-tense version of 'will'. the first doesn't make sense, because this hypothetical could clearly be true, and the second doesn't make sense because the hack is being described in the present tense, not the past tense. 'might', a present tense construction, makes more sense.

choice d, on the other hand, uses the more concise form 'still harboring' and the correct-tense forms 'will be' and 'might'.



hi ron, i remember you said the pronoun (such as those, this) can not STANDALONE.
why in this time you eliminate the *who blah* and leave the *those* alone?

here is the link you said that PRONOUN points:
http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/post39671.html?sid=2a7239496211c32e1f15e7eb2e2a1c64&sid=7211e55b1401209ee8445679f4d271e1#p39671

please clarify, thank you!