Striking differences

[HanzZ]

Hello Ron,

Per post above directly, I have another question regarding your comment on this similar issue in another post, here:

for-the-last-five-years-the-dutch-economy-has-grown-faster-t6655.html

Relevant part:
--------------
Quote: If yes, shouldn't "the unemployment rate has remained well below that of the other three countries" become "the unemployment rate has remained well below the unemployment rates of the other three countries" because those 3 countries have different rates?

yeah, i don't get that, either; apparently, the economies are separate but nonetheless somehow share an unemployment rate.
strange.

this is one of my many qualms with the gmat's refusal to release test questions, even after they become defunct: some questions are just bad, but they won't be outed unless they actually show up in published materials.
--------------
I noticed that post has been dated. Has the rule changed every since? Just want to make sure. So 'that of the other three countries' is ok?

Thanks in advance!

[abhinavmishra666]

Hi Ron,

My question is on the use of "infections such as" vs "such infections as", i thought the latter was incorrect as I was told "such as is split up when we are trying to prove a point or show a degree". Please can you help explain the usage of such 'something' as vs such as something.

Thanks.

[tim]

Has the rule changed every since? Just want to make sure. So 'that of the other three countries' is ok?

Thanks in advance!

No, the rule has been the same all along. What you need to do is find the antecedent in the sentence and make sure it matches up in number with the pronoun. I believe this is consistent with all the examples mentioned here and with Ron's comments.

[tim]

Hi Ron,

My question is on the use of "infections such as" vs "such infections as", i thought the latter was incorrect as I was told "such as is split up when we are trying to prove a point or show a degree". Please can you help explain the usage of such 'something' as vs such as something.

Thanks.

I can't believe the GMAT would ever test this distinction, and furthermore I believe both are correct. Can you provide an example of any question where you are required to decide between these two options?

[gmatkiller_24]

What are your thoughts on the usage of "in both grammar and vocabulary" vs "which include grammar and vocabulary" in choices A and C?

Is it alright to use either of them?

the latter ("...include...") creates a sentence with a nonsense meaning.

that construction yields a sentence that says "the striking differences between xxxxx and yyyyy languages, which include grammar and vocabulary..."
the problem is that grammar and vocabulary themselves are not actually "included" in this group.

I am little bit confused about this explanation.

What is not included in this group ? is it which refer to languages? Can you further elaborate on this issue? Thank you, Ron!

[RonPurewal]

• grammar and vocabulary are not "differences between languages". (the differences between languages are differences in grammar and/or vocabulary.)

• grammar and vocabulary are also not languages.

thus, there is nothing that "including grammar and vocabulary" can correctly modify.

[RonPurewal]

here's a workable version:

The striking differences between certain aspects of Native American and European languages, including grammar and vocabulary, ...

if you understand why this version DOES work, then you should also understand why the other one doesn't.

[gmatkiller_24]

here's a workable version:

The striking differences between certain aspects of Native American and European languages, including grammar and vocabulary, ...

if you understand why this version DOES work, then you should also understand why the other one doesn't.

sure，

thanks Ron

[RonPurewal]

excellent.

[RichaChampion]

One thing I am a little uncertain about is, when we use including, should it always immediately follow the noun?

I enjoy all different kinds of movies including actions and horrors.

can we say, various types of movie are produced nowadays, including actions and horrors?

Thanks.

See, this is the kind of question you don't have to think about. Don't forget that the problems are multiple-choice!

If you face this issue, just take the choice that places "including" as close as possible to the thing it's describing.

I.e., if you faced a choice between your version (given here) and "various types of movies, including xxxxx, are produced nowadays", then you'd take the latter.

Mr. Purewal,

I have some notes that I have collected from some analysis done on some other post by You.

"INCLUDING" is an EXCEPTION to the otherwise robust rules for comma+ing modifiers.

When you see "comma + including", you should think of "including" as a preposition, not as an -ing modifier. Therefore, "including X" will become a prepositional phrase that describes the stuff preceding the comma.
Thanks for pointing this out / calling it to our attention -- we'll be sure to include it in our revised unit on modifiers in the course.

_______________________________________________________________

Can you please help me to analyse the usage of "including" in the option choice B -

(B) that of European languages, including grammar and vocabulary, has

You have explained in this in the above post, yet I am confused - https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/foru ... ml#p113657

What exactly is including modifying in the above Option?


I have one more question - I searched a lot of forums regrading the usages of prepositional phrase. I got confused seeing so much information after doing google research. I thing this is a very common concept, but important too and at least 90% GMAT SC questions will have this concept tested.

I have some information about the preposition "with" -

[Clause] + [comma]+ [with] → WITH modifies the action (verb). It answers the questions how that action was performed.
[Noun] + [Comma] + [With] → WITH Modifies the noun.

I scored a century, with a special bat
Clause + comma + with modifies the verb and answers the question how the action was performed.

Starfish, with an innate ability to reproduce, reproduces very fast.
Noun + Comma + With -→ modifies the noun.

But preposition is was too broad concept.

Can you guide me how comma+prepositions (prepositional phrases) behave in the GMAT question. As far as I know they tend to modify action before the comma? Am I right? Please guide me if I am correct or there are any exceptions.

[RonPurewal]

(B) that of European languages, including grammar and vocabulary, has

What exactly is including modifying in the above Option?

that's a wrong answer choice -- which is wrong for a MUCH more obvious reason ("the differences has...") -- so there's no point in struggling to pin this down.

I have one more question - I searched a lot of forums regrading the usages of prepositional phrase. I got confused seeing so much information after doing google research. I thing this is a very common concept, but important too and at least 90% GMAT SC questions will have this concept tested.

at least 90%? so, nine out of every ten SC problems?
LOL

i mean... obviously you're exaggerating on purpose, but... the real figure is definitely no greater than 10 or 15 percent, and is probably even smaller.

in general, if one of these phrases is separated by commas, then it should have some kind of relationship to the entire main sentence (not just to a noun). this will normally be the case no matter where the phrase is located.

using the example you supplied (modified to make more logical sense) --
Starfish, with an innate ability to reproduce quickly, can produce over a thousand offspring in one week.
here, "with an innate ability..." doesn't ONLY modify "starfish". it also relates to the idea of the whole sentence -- it's the reason WHY starfish can produce over 1000 offspring in a week.

[RonPurewal]

__

still—you should make sure that you aren't over-emphasizing "rules" like this, and under-emphasizing the fact that this is a multiple-choice test.
if you see one of these phrases in an answer choice, you'll ALWAYS be able to LOOK AT ITS COUNTERPARTS IN OTHER CHOICES, and see what THOSE constructions are doing DIFFERENTLY. that will give you a much better -- and much more specific -- idea of what actually matters about the specific phrase you're looking at.

in other words, any further questions about these kinds of phrases should be asked in terms of specific GMAT problems, rather than as generalities.