Q21 - The Japanese haiku is defined

[yama_sekander]

I got this question right by chance...i narrowed down the answer to A, B, and C



i eliminated C because "stereotype" i think that its too big of a gap to make based on the stimulus.

this then led me to A and B. i ended up picking B because it made the most sense (and i understood what the answer choice meant). based on one example, the author could not make the argument that they have little respect, thus making a conclusion that is broader in scope


however, i would like to know what A is saying. could someone give an example and break down the meaning of A? thanks

[demetri.blaisdell]

It's never as satisfying to get the answer right by guessing. The core is:

English poets ignore syllable count in Haiku --> English poets don't respect foreign traditions

Does this argument seem a little rash? Couldn't English poets just be bad at math? Or maybe the English don't like the Japanese but love other foreign traditions? To conclude that they don't respect foreign traditions just because they don't respect the syllable count in haiku seems like a huge leap. (B) describes this leap in general terms. The conclusion is far, far too broad for the evidence given.

(A) says that the argument is confusing objective fact (data or some observable, quantifiable occurrence) with subjective feeling (likes/dislikes or preferences). Try to match it up: where are the objective facts? The best we get here is English poets ignoring haiku counts. That could be an objective fact. But the author is concluding that they don't respect foreign traditions based on that. That's not a feeling. There is no reason why that could not be an objective fact as well. The author hasn't given us enough evidence to prove it, but if he/she had, then it would be another objective fact, not a subjective feeling. This flaw would look something like: A study of English haiku showed that 75% of people think it is bad --> English poetry is bad. The premise is somewhere between objective fact and subjective feeling. That's not what we see here.

(C) is not a flaw in the argument. The argument would look something like this: Everyone knows English people always disrespect foreign traditions --> English poets disrespect foreign traditions. Not what we see here.

(D) is the opposite of what we are looking for. The argument is telling us that this case (ignoring haiku counts) is not unique, so it can't be overlooking it.

(E) is another opposite. I think it's safe to say that the author agrees that the English poets are making a negative judgment (disrespecting) Japanese poetry by ignoring haiku counts.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Demetri

[nonameee]

I still don't understand why (A) is wrong.

Confuses matters of objective fact = "lines and syllable count"
with
matters of subjective feelings = "call a poem with a haiku feel"

What's wrong with the reasoning above?

[timmydoeslsat]

Those two matters are not being confused with one another.

The author is going from a situation where English poets ignore the syllable count in haikus, yet still call them such.

Does this warrant the conclusion of English poets having little respect for foreign traditions. Not only is foreign traditions way too broad of an attack from the evidence, but we also do not have sufficient evidence to conclude little respect for the haikus either.

The problem with (A) is the word confuses. The author does go from a fact (English poets ignore syllable count in haikus) to conclude a statement about a feeling of respect, but nothing is confused here. The fact is used as evidence for the conclusion, but obviously fails in being valid.

[nonameee]

Does this warrant the conclusion of English poets having little respect for foreign traditions. Not only is foreign traditions way too broad of an attack from the evidence, but we also do not have sufficient evidence to conclude little respect for the haikus either.

This part is clear, and I am not questioning the validity of the OA. But I want to understand why (A) is wrong.

In the argument the author says that haiku is defined by a syllable count. Later in the argument he says that English poets call haiku not based on a syllable count but based on some feeling. Now, they might do that not because they don't know this syllable rule or because they disrespect foreign traditions, but because they just think that a haiku term would be appropriate for these kind of poems.

So what I'm still not sure about is that the author of the argument defines haiku in one way and then compares (or rather swithes from) this definition to the haiku feel. Or in other words, on the one hand we have a mathematical definition of haiku, and later on we are talking about feelings.

Please explain. Thank you.

[anjelica.grace]

In my pre-phrase for this question, I thought that the author assumed that ignoring the syllable count implied little disrespect aka (E). So why is (E) wrong? I do see why (B) is correct but it seems to me that the author makes the assumption in (E) and thus has errs in failing to acknowledge or establish that assumption.

HELP PLEASE! THANK YOU!

[bex]

In my pre-phrase for this question, I thought that the author assumed that ignoring the syllable count implied little disrespect aka (E). So why is (E) wrong? I do see why (B) is correct but it seems to me that the author makes the assumption in (E) and thus has errs in failing to acknowledge or establish that assumption.

HELP PLEASE! THANK YOU!

E says "fails to acknowledge that ignoring something implies a negative judgement".

ignoring something DOESN'T imply a negative judgement about something, though.

The tricky part is that if you pre-phrased an answer (mine: Ignoring DOESN'T imply disrespect), it has all the right words- just in the wrong order.

[odst117]

Hi, first time posting.

Ah I think I get it. It looks like because it's not just about foreign POETRY it's applying itself to foreign traditions in general.
This is why B would be right. I see that.

But my question is, where is he getting this "factual" evidence that English poets ignore syllable count? Couldn't this be considered a stereotypical assertion?
I got this question wrong by selecting (C) instead of (B), although (A) was going to be my next choice.
I understand why the selection is right, (C) also correct? Albeit not AS correct?

[sportsfan8491]

I'd like to say a few words about the answer choices in this question to hopefully help with some of the confusion. I'll address (A) first and then (C) second. Honestly, I almost got this wrong in timed practice, as it was towards the end of the section, and (A) looked somewhat appealing, until I saw two fatal flaws with it and remembered what my main task in analyzing arguments on the LSAT is: how do the premises support the conclusion?

When analyzing arguments, we need to remember that we are looking for the link between the premises and conclusion; whether they provide strong support or if there are gaps that need to be addressed. Although this answer doesn't ask us how the argument is flawed DIRECTLY, the REASONING pertains to how the premises support the conclusion and, in my opinion, NOT for how the premises support each other.

Okay, so with that in mind, take another look at (A). Would you not agree that if anything, this might be addressing something that's possibly going on between the premises? Remember, I believe the word reasoning implicityly instructs us to look at the entire argument - the premise to conclusion gap, so to speak.

Answer choice (A) literally has no impact or bearing on how the premises support the conclusion. It might be a confusion that happens between premises (which I argue below that it doesn't really happen), and sorry for sounding like a broken record, but we need to analyze the ENTIRE ARGUMENT! As demetri stated, the conclusion goes way too far in stating that English poets have little respect because there could be other explanations, like maybe they can't count, and this is why (B) is correct.

So answer choice (A) is utterly and completely wrong and almost tricked me, until I realized that the test writers were trying to fool me by getting me to focus on something 'supposedly' going on between the premises! I've noticed that this has come up several times now on 'analyze the argument' type questions (I've seen it in flaw, strengthen, and weaken questions), so a word to the wise would be that you need to look at the premise to conclusion gap, the premise to sub-conclusion gap, or the sub-conclusion to conclusion gap. The common theme I'm noticing is that the premise to premise gap is a red herring and makes for some great trap answer choices.

One other point I'd like to make is that I also agree with demetri that subjective feeling is nowhere to be found in the evidence; we are presented with evidence or facts that don't completely support the main conclusion. If you think about it, we are being given a fact about what English poets do (they generally call something one thing) and not being told anything about how they feel or if it's some sort of preference of their's. We aren't told why they do it or if they incorrectly label these poems because of an internal feeling or preference, just that it happens generally. I think the phrase "haiku feel" can be deceiving if you don't understand its function or purpose in the larger context of the entire sentence, which is just to present us with evidence. So, for these two reasons, (A) is not only wrong, but very, very wrong and a great trap answer choice!

(C) is wrong because I don't think the premise before the conclusion can be considered a stereotype. In my opinion, a stereotype would consist of a statement that tells us how most or all people view or think about something. For example, a stereotype would be something like "the common perception most people have is that lawyers are always exceptionally dressed at work". It's what people commonly think or feel about another group of individuals or things.

The statement we received, on the other hand, tells us something that English poets generally do, so it can't be a stereotype because it describes an action that most English poets engage in (call vs think/feel/perceive). I think we would need something a little stronger than this in order for it to be considered a stereotype (please see Demetri's point as I think he has provided a great example in one of the prior posts for this question)

Also, all arguments rely on evidence or premises, so this answer choice can be quickly eliminated for that reason alone. It wouldn't be an argument or it wouldn't have a particular line of reasoning without having premises/evidence supporting a conclusion and a stereotype would need to be part of the evidence. Do you see what I'm getting at?...this answer choice is basically contradicting itself in what it's saying! You can't rely on a stereotype if that stereotype isn't part of the evidence, so we must be presented with evidence for the first part of this claim to be even remotely true, which it obviously isn't.

Sorry for the long response. Hope it helps!

[Mab6q]

I can see why B is correct here, and it could probably be the correct answer for over half of all flaw questions. However I'm still shaken up by E.

You say it is opposite, but the answer choice says that the author fails to acknowledge, which for me means that the author failed to tell us that ignoring implies a negative judgement. In other words, I'm seeing E as telling us that the author failed to establish that ignoring --> negative judgement, not that it says the author failed to consider the fact that ignoring --> negative judgement.

How are we supposed to interpret acknowledge here, because I don't see why it would not work with the first example i gave - implying that the author failed to establish.

[maryadkins]

In other words, I'm seeing E as telling us that the author failed to establish that ignoring --> negative judgement, not that it says the author failed to consider the fact that ignoring --> negative judgement.

Think about it like this. If I say, "I need you to acknowledge that I am the best," what I am asking is for you to state that I am the best. Yes, you haven't stated it. But the reason it has not been said isn't because you're assuming I'm the best and just not saying it. It's because you don't SEE THE TRUTH—that I'm the best!

"Acknowledge that" does mean state/see/express/understand...but it's modifying something that is objectively TRUE and therefore needs to be acknowledged. Not something that is assumed and is therefore questionable.

In this case, if it is true that ignoring is negative...well, that's consistent with the argument.