Industrialization and modern methods Usage of while and but

[velascojh]

Hi Ron,

Please could you explain why the original sentence is wrong.

Thank you,

[RonPurewal]

Hi Ron,

Please could you explain why the original sentence is wrong.

Thank you,

choice (a) uses a COMMA + -ING modifier: "..., having..."

takeaway:
COMMA -ING modifiers are adverbial. they:
* modify the ENTIRE PRECEDING CLAUSE
* are ATTRIBUTED TO THE SUBJECT of the PRECEDING CLAUSE

the second of these principles tells us that
Industrialization and modern methods of insect control
are what have "gone virtually unregulated" in choice (a).

this is incorrect; it's the chemicals that have gone virtually unregulated.

[zarak_khan]

Tutors,

Sorry about this very long post. However, this question resembles another GMATPrep question. I got both wrong because of my understanding of modifiers, pronouns, etc. Are any common patterns present that can be learnt to ensure such problems are not an issue during the actual GMAT test? Thanks!

GMAT Prep Question 1
Industrialization and modern methods of insect control have improved the standard of living around the globe while at the same time they have introduced some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants, having gone virtually unregulated since they were developed more than 50 years ago.
A. while at the same time they have introduced some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants, having ---> I selected this choice
B. while at the same time introducing some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants that have ---> correct choice
C. while they have introduced some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants at the same time, which have
D. but introducing some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants at the same time that have
E. but at the same time introducing some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutant, having

GMAT Prep Question 2
Diesel engines burn as much as 30% less fuel than gasoline engines of comparable size, as well as emitting far less carbon dioxide gas and far fewer of the other gasses that have been implicated in global warming.
A of comparable size , as well as emitting far less carbon dioxide gas and far fewer of the other gasses that have --> correct choice
B of comparable size, as well as emit far less carbon dioxide gas and far fewer of the other gasses having --> I selected this choice
C of comparable size, and also they emit far fewer carbon dioxide and other gasses that have
D that have a comparable size, and also they emit far fewer of the other gasses having
E that have a comparable size, as well as emitting far fewer of the other gasses having

Thanks!

[RonPurewal]

Tutors,

Sorry about this very long post. However, this question resembles another GMATPrep question. I got both wrong because of my understanding of modifiers, pronouns, etc. Are any common patterns present that can be learnt to ensure such problems are not an issue during the actual GMAT test? Thanks!

GMAT Prep Question 1
Industrialization and modern methods of insect control have improved the standard of living around the globe while at the same time they have introduced some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants, having gone virtually unregulated since they were developed more than 50 years ago.
A. while at the same time they have introduced some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants, having ---> I selected this choice
B. while at the same time introducing some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants that have ---> correct choice
C. while they have introduced some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants at the same time, which have
D. but introducing some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants at the same time that have
E. but at the same time introducing some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutant, having

GMAT Prep Question 2
Diesel engines burn as much as 30% less fuel than gasoline engines of comparable size, as well as emitting far less carbon dioxide gas and far fewer of the other gasses that have been implicated in global warming.
A of comparable size , as well as emitting far less carbon dioxide gas and far fewer of the other gasses that have --> correct choice
B of comparable size, as well as emit far less carbon dioxide gas and far fewer of the other gasses having --> I selected this choice
C of comparable size, and also they emit far fewer carbon dioxide and other gasses that have
D that have a comparable size, and also they emit far fewer of the other gasses having
E that have a comparable size, as well as emitting far fewer of the other gasses having

Thanks!

i think you may be on to something here.
1) i'm quite sure that "having" cannot be properly used in a COMMA -ING modifier.
2) i'm also fairly sure -- although not 100% sure this time -- that "having" shouldn't be used to start a modifier at all, since the corresponding form with "that/who/which have" is better.
for instance, students having finished the exam early is inferior to students who have finished the exam early.

i certainly can't think of any counterexamples at the moment, so i believe that this should be a reliable rule. nice analysis!

[yogeshthehackologist]

Hi,

What is this UNREDUCED concept in SC?
while running the marathon, james tripped and fell.
unreduced --> while he was running the marathon, james tripped and fell (past tense parallelism)

timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while employed with the company.
unreduced --> timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while he has been employed with the company. (present perfect parallelism)

Also, I want to know the two underlined sentences are incorrect because I find them correct. Kindly give some pointers to understand this.

Regards.

[RonPurewal]

Hi,

What is this UNREDUCED concept in SC?
while running the marathon, james tripped and fell.
unreduced --> while he was running the marathon, james tripped and fell (past tense parallelism)

timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while employed with the company.
unreduced --> timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while he has been employed with the company. (present perfect parallelism)

Also, I want to know the two underlined sentences are incorrect because I find them correct. Kindly give some pointers to understand this.

Regards.

from what source did you get these examples (and terminology)? who is saying that these underlined sentences are incorrect?

i would be extremely surprised if an official source declared those two "reduced" versions incorrect.
in fact, it's clear that the second one ("while employed...") would be acceptable in an official problem, since it has the same construction as the correct answer to the above problem involving pollutants ("while at the same time introducing..."). i strongly suspect that the first is ok as well.

remember not to cite random sources in this folder -- this folder is for GMAT PREP VERBAL problems ONLY.

[vscidd]

C is incorrect because 'and have' is referring to the 'industrialization and modern methods'

[vscidd]

Hi Ron,

Please could you explain why the original sentence is wrong.

Thank you,

choice (a) uses a COMMA + -ING modifier: "..., having..."

takeaway:
COMMA -ING modifiers are adverbial. they:
* modify the ENTIRE PRECEDING CLAUSE
* are ATTRIBUTED TO THE SUBJECT of the PRECEDING CLAUSE

the second of these principles tells us that
Industrialization and modern methods of insect control
are what have "gone virtually unregulated" in choice (a).

this is incorrect; it's the chemicals that have gone virtually unregulated.

Ron,

Come to think of it, why can't 'industrialization and modern methods' go unregulated?

[RonPurewal]

Ron,

Come to think of it, why can't 'industrialization and modern methods' go unregulated?

even though that may be an acceptable interpretation, this choice still doesn't contain a correct use of the COMMA + -ING modifier.

in particular, the COMMA -ING modifiers should represent one of the following two meanings:
1) the -ing part is the DIRECT or INEVITABLE CONSEQUENCE of what is described in the main clause;
or
2) the -ing part describes the MANNER IN WHICH the main clause occurs.

here are examples of each:
1) bob earned a score of 95 on the most recent exam, bringing his average for the entire semester up to 87.
2) joe ran down the sidewalk, flapping his arms frantically.

the problem with choice (a) on this question is that it seems to be an example of relationship type #1, but the causation is reversed. in other words, the way in which this choice is written -- ... introduced some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants, having gone virtually unregulated -- implies that the lack of regulation is actually a consequence of the presence of the chemical pollutants.
that doesn't work, although the sentence would actually work decently well if it were written backward, i.e., went virtually unregulated, introducing some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants...
even that construction would still be a little bit shaky, since the connection between lack of regulation and production of dangerous pollutants is not terribly sound. (note the terms "direct" and "inevitable" in the above explanation -- you don't normally use comma -ing modifiers unless you have a very strong connection like this.)

[gs.abhinav]

1) i'm quite sure that "having" cannot be properly used in a COMMA -ING modifier.

Ron - You forgot the Christopher Columbus question (...having been sent by the king and queen of Spain...)

:)

[mschwrtz]

Yep, and here's another exception, post43746.html#p43746.

[lmc718]

Hi,

What is this UNREDUCED concept in SC?
while running the marathon, james tripped and fell.
unreduced --> while he was running the marathon, james tripped and fell (past tense parallelism)

timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while employed with the company.
unreduced --> timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while he has been employed with the company. (present perfect parallelism)

Also, I want to know the two underlined sentences are incorrect because I find them correct. Kindly give some pointers to understand this.

Regards.

from what source did you get these examples (and terminology)? who is saying that these underlined sentences are incorrect?

i would be extremely surprised if an official source declared those two "reduced" versions incorrect.
in fact, it's clear that the second one ("while employed...") would be acceptable in an official problem, since it has the same construction as the correct answer to the above problem involving pollutants ("while at the same time introducing..."). i strongly suspect that the first is ok as well.

remember not to cite random sources in this folder -- this folder is for GMAT PREP VERBAL problems ONLY.

Hi Ron , the source was offered by you. You wrote the two unreduced example in the previous page of this thread~
Do you remember ?????????????????

[RonPurewal]

Hi Ron , the source was offered by you. You wrote the two unreduced example in the previous page of this thread~
Do you remember ?????????????????

that's ... a lot of question marks; relax, friend.
i wrote that post over 2 1/2 years ago! so, no, i don't remember it -- thanks for citing the source.

if you go back and read that post, i was providing "unreduced" examples of those sentences in order to explain why the originals are correct. i was not implying that the sentences had to be expanded in this way to be correct.

the poster to whom i was responding was (mistakenly) treating those sentences as incorrect.

[ccx90719]

I just wonder what the sentence looks like without the "reduction".

Should it be:
1. Industrialization and modern methods of insect control have improved the standard of living around the globe while at the same time they have introduced some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants that have gone virtually unregulated since they were developed more than 50 years ago.
or
2. Industrialization and modern methods of insect control have improved the standard of living around the globe while at the same time they introduce some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants that have gone virtually unregulated since they were developed more than 50 years ago.
or
3. Industrialization and modern methods of insect control have improved the standard of living around the globe while at the same time they are introducing some 100,000 dangerous chemical pollutants that have gone virtually unregulated since they were developed more than 50 years ago.
?

My understanding is that "while/although/whereas/etc S+V1+O1, S+V2+O2" can be rewritten to "while/although/whereas/etc V1-ing+O1, S+V2+O2" if and only if the subjects of both clauses are the same and V1 is in one of the continuous tense. In other words, #1 and #2 cannot be correct.

Am I wrong??? Just want to make sure that my concept is correct.

#1 is actually ok; there's nothing wrong with writing the sentence with absolute parallelism, provided that such parallelism doesn't change the actual meaning of the sentence.

#2 is wrong, because of the tense mismatch.

#3 is also wrong. if you're going to flesh out the participle (getting rid of the 'reduction', as you put it), you must use parallel tenses.
for instance:

while running the marathon, james tripped and fell.
unreduced --> while he was running the marathon, james tripped and fell (past tense parallelism)

timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while employed with the company.
unreduced --> timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while he has been employed with the company. (present perfect parallelism)

you get the idea.

so, if you're going to get rid of the 'reduction', then, ironically, you'll produce a sentence like #1.

Hi Ron,
timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while being employed with the company.
Is this right?
Thanks

[RonPurewal]

Hi Ron,
timmy has learned a lot of valuable lessons while being employed with the company.
Is this right?
Thanks

there's no need for "being" in that construction, because while employed... is already sufficient.

i wouldn't say that it's actually incorrect, but it's unnecessarily wordy/incorrect. (notice that the gmat will not test this sort of difference.)